1. IrvingSnodgrass - June 16, 1999 - 8:28 AM PT
The bombing is over, and the NATO troops have entered Kosovo. Will the operation be a success? Will the Russians play along? Will the KLA? Can the Serbs be trusted? Will the Kosovars go home?
What's going to happen?
2. vonKreedon - June 16, 1999 - 8:35 AM PT
Irv - How about pasting today's postings in the the "Bombing the Serbs" thread into this one as the subject was already being discussed?
3. bottomfdr - June 16, 1999 - 8:48 AM PT
Fraymeister: The answer is yes.
La guerre est finie.
Les Serbs cruels sont battues.
NATO se vante sa victoire.
Et la belle paix est finallement revenue.
VIVE LE GRAND PEUPLE ALBANIAN!
4. IrvingSnodgrass - June 16, 1999 - 8:59 AM PT
vonK:
I have asked the archivist to get the old thread up on the archives site, and then we can link it directly from here. Sorry for the inconvenience.
5. RosettaStone - June 16, 1999 - 9:07 AM PT
Consider the radical reich here headed by the mad bomber Jexster much like a bacteria...
6. IrvingSnodgrass - June 16, 1999 - 10:18 AM PT
Here are the archives for the recently retired Bombing the Serbs thread:
Bombing the Serbs
There is a link to the last 122 posts in the thread.
7. vonKreedon - June 16, 1999 - 11:26 AM PT
Thanks Irv.
8. Wombat - June 16, 1999 - 11:42 AM PT
I would be interested in Rosie's take on the call from the Serbian Orthodox Church for Milosevic to step down.
9. RosettaStone - June 16, 1999 - 1:56 PM PT
Suggested language for Slobo: "Gosh, sorry. We have this hotheaded nationalistic military we are now trying to rein in. It won't happen again!"
No, wombat, I think Slobo should leave as soon as possible to get American Social Security-tax dollars into Serbia to repair the damage our bombs did to the country.
To the losers go the spoils!
10. RosettaStone - June 16, 1999 - 2:04 PM PT
The real question should be: How soon do we start letting Serbian refugees into New Jersey?
And will Hillary welcome them?
11. Wombat - June 16, 1999 - 2:13 PM PT
Rosie:
You are an idiot as usual. If it helps provides stability to the region--as US aid did in Western Europe and Japan after World War II--it would be money well-spent.
12. RosettaStone - June 16, 1999 - 2:21 PM PT
"If"
But it won't.
And now we are militarily involved in the Balkan Civil War for forever.
13. JJBiener - June 16, 1999 - 2:28 PM PT
Isn't this a movie plot? A small European nation provokes a war with the US in order to lose and be rebuilt by the US taxpayers. It looks like life is imitating art. (If a Peter Sellers movie can really be considered art. . .)
14. Wombat - June 16, 1999 - 2:29 PM PT
You could have said the same about Western Europe between 1870 and 1945. It took over 40 years of a huge US presence to help acheive stability. Would you say that was a waste of resources?
15. Wombat - June 16, 1999 - 2:30 PM PT
But JJ, the small country "won" that war. (What a great film!)
16. Trialshark - June 16, 1999 - 3:59 PM PT
JJ --
I believe the film was called "The Mouse That Roared."
17. goodfly - June 16, 1999 - 4:15 PM PT
Slobo,s testicles are now in the grip of thr Serbian Orthodox priesthood and soon wiil be on the silver salver, ready for DNA testing for Rosies saliva. All for the assurance of NATO rebuilding the wreckage Slobo brought to his countrymen.
18. bottomfdr - June 16, 1999 - 4:25 PM PT
The US has had a military presence in South Korea for over forty years costing billions and billions of dollars. There is nothing new about the concept of foreign responsibilities lasting a generation or more.
But for some reason, a lot of people are acting as though they have never heard of such a thing. What is our "exit strategy?" What is our "end game?" Dumb questions asked by people just want to irritate.
19. colossus - June 16, 1999 - 4:35 PM PT
Aux armes bttmfdr!
This makes me wish we'd not been so humane.
Kosova Landscape Lays Bare Serb Brutality {NYT}
20. colossus - June 16, 1999 - 4:37 PM PT
Trial Shark is correct - the movie is the "Mouse That Roared" not the Rat That Retched.
21. goodfly - June 16, 1999 - 4:38 PM PT
Rosie Suggesting words for Slobo:: Interesting you should put words in Slobo's mouth when his dick has been in yours for lo these many months.
22. bottomfdr - June 16, 1999 - 4:41 PM PT
Vivent les soldats triomphants du KLA!
23. colossus - June 16, 1999 - 4:41 PM PT
I guess we should never have negotiated a peace. It seems to have "caused" war crime:
"But after Belgrade capitulated and the Serb forces were given six days to pull out of this region, "they got mad at everything," Miss Lokaj said, "and they began to burn again." The Serbs "took anything they wanted, and they started driving people out of the center."
24. bottomfdr - June 16, 1999 - 4:58 PM PT
Colossus: No matter how positive the outcome of this war is or will be, the soreheads are going to keep spinning, spinning and spinning. Where else have they got to go except into denial? They labelled it "Clinton's war," and now they have to start eating their own words. Tartar sauce anyone?
25. RosettaStone - June 16, 1999 - 5:27 PM PT
Khutspe Award of the Week
(UPI) The Clinton administration says it is seeking compensation from China for damage to its diplomatic facilities by Chinese students protesting the "mistaken" NATO bombing of Beijing's embassy in Belgrade.
26. colossus - June 16, 1999 - 5:58 PM PT
"After Serb forces pulled out Tuesday, Dutch NATO troops found the charred remains of about 20 people at a farm in Velika Krusa in southwestern Kosovo, officials said.
Journalists brought to the scene saw piles of rotting bones and burnt flesh amid blackened roofbeams and shingles of a smalltwo-room house. A dog chewed the remains of a corpse in the yard....
At the U.N. war crimes tribunal at The Hague, Deputy Prosecutor Graham Blewitt said forensics teams were ready to fan out through Kosovo within 48 hours of getting the go-ahead from NAT0 peacekeepers."
95 mass grave sites discovered thus far. Serbs herded men, women and children into a basement and threw in a grenade. The bricks are soaked with blood.
"Holy" Kosova my ass.
Thank God for each and every Nato bomb on target or not.
27. colossus - June 16, 1999 - 6:01 PM PT
PRISTINA (Reuters) - In village after village across Kosovo, evidence of systematic atrocities by Serb forces proliferated by the hour Wednesday with grisly discoveries of mass graves, charred human remains and mangled corpses dumped in wells.
Refugees returning to their homes in the Yugoslav province are seeing the macabre aftermath of a murderous rampage against the province's ethnic Albanian majority.
Foreign journalists venturing into remote areas -- in some cases before the arrival of advancing NATO troops -- are not only hearing accounts of massacres but are being shown gruesome sights that appear
to back them up.
In the Drenica region near the provincial capital Pristina, bodies were found dumped in four wells in a village where residents said up to 100 ethnic Albanians were slaughtered by Serbs shortly before
NATO peacekeepers entered Kosovo.
Reuters reporters saw corpses or limbs in three of the wells...."
Oops. Looks like NATO caused more needless suffering.
28. bottomfdr - June 16, 1999 - 6:03 PM PT
Rosetta: Another nagging question is: How soon can the Yugoslav Serbs begin paying billions of dollars in reparations to the Kosovar Albanians? It could take them a generation or more and leave them with nothing in the meantime to rebuild their own shattered infrastructure. I sure hope that they can survive the tough years to come. Maybe their great allies, the North Koreans, can help them.
29. bottomfdr - June 16, 1999 - 6:05 PM PT
Rosetta: Another nagging question is: How soon can the Yugoslav Serbs begin paying billions of dollars in reparations to the Kosovar Albanians? It could take them a generation or more and leave them with nothing in the meantime to rebuild their own shattered infrastructure. I sure hope that they can survive the tough years to come. Maybe their great allies, the North Koreans, can help them.
30. colossus - June 16, 1999 - 6:19 PM PT
I'm with you bttmfdr.
Not only should we demand that Serbia turn over all indicted war criminals, we should also demand reparations or resume bombing.
The least they could do is pay burial expenses for all those mass graves. 95 and counting.
31. colossus - June 16, 1999 - 6:21 PM PT
Could someone explain to me how we are involved in a Balkan "Civil War"?
Kosova will soon be 99% Albanian. The remaining 1% criminal serb population is more a matter for the local police.
32. bottomfdr - June 16, 1999 - 6:36 PM PT
Right on Colossus. But what I'm afraid of is that Clinton and NATO are going to let Slobo and the Serbs off the hook. Infact, I wouldn't be surprised to see Mad. Albright shaking hands with that SOB in the not-too-distant future. All in the name of consensus. And if the UN has its way, Slobo is home free. Where is McCain when we need him?
33. uzmakk - June 16, 1999 - 8:24 PM PT
Ah, Colonosis and the Farts, the Fray's most unique yet predictable combo, continue their prosaic chant.
34. RosettaStone - June 17, 1999 - 5:53 AM PT
"UNCONVINCING"
The U.S. explanation of the U.S.-led NATO attack on the Chinese Embassy in Belgrade is "unconvincing," and therefore the Chinese government and people cannot accept the conclusion that the "bombing was a mistake," writes Reuters.
This "bad maps, accidental, sorry" excuse of how the U.S. bombed the Chinese in Belgrade is pathetic and its coverup will be a continuing problem between the ChiComs and the U.S.
35. joezan - June 17, 1999 - 6:33 AM PT
bttmfdr - Message #18:
So. The fact that we went into Korea to protect the penninsula from the communists, but settled for a split, and now are on our third generation of soldiers tenuously maintaining the sovereignty of the south, with no hope of ever leaving the place, and after having spent hundreds of billions of $'s on this stalemate - and with the prospect of nothing but the same in YugoLand (except that this time we are committed to rebuilding the whole damn country) - THIS you see as a viable policy for the US to adopt in its role as the World's Policeman?
What's really galling about this, is that you speak as if it's simply a matter of putting another policeman on the beat. Hey - it's working great here in the US. All it took was another 80,000 police officers.
The Yugo Peace Plan - Community Policing - writ large.
The New World Order - It takes a global village to raise a country.
36. JJBiener - June 17, 1999 - 6:53 AM PT
It is odd reading the Clinton Hawks recounting the horrors perpetrated by the Serbians in Kosovo. Each one is an example of the failure of Clinton's policy. Clinton's objective was to end the atrocities against the ethnic Albanians. We were told that the bombing would do that. We now have thousands of dead Albanians that stand in silent testimony to fact that the bombing could not save them. I don't see how anyone can look at the innocent bloodshed and see this as anything but a Pyrrhic victory.
37. bottomfdr - June 17, 1999 - 8:50 AM PT
JJ: If Clinton's objective was to end the atrocities against the Albanians then I would say he has reached it. It's over. Pyrrhic victory? In order to defeat the Third Reich it was necessary to bomb French cities to drive out the Wehrmacht. A lot of French people died in the process. Was that then a "pyrrhic victory? There was a lot of collateral damage, but I've never heard anyone describe as anything other than a victory. But maybe the rules have changed.
38. bottomfdr - June 17, 1999 - 9:22 AM PT
I know that Clinton detractors early-on named it "Clinton's War," hoping it would be a failure. More grist for their let's-get-Clinton mill.
And now that it has come to an obvious successful conclusion, they are more upset than ever. I would think that they would get tired of the taste of sour grapes.
This is no clear-cut victory. Limited wars produce mixed results. Rather like the Gulf War, a great military success, but Saddam is still in power while Bush, Powell, and the rest aren't.
What I'm afraid of is that a year from now Slobo will still be in the presidential palace in Belgrade. That would be a travesty and if the UN has its way it's a real possibility.
39. Trialshark - June 17, 1999 - 9:37 AM PT
JJ --
"Clinton's objective was to end the atrocities against the ethnic Albanians."
Not exactly, but you're on the right track.
"We were told that the bombing would do that."
It has.
Next question.
40. JJBiener - June 17, 1999 - 9:41 AM PT
Bottomfdr - The difference between Kosovo and France is the stated objective. In France the objective was to defeat the Germans "No matter the cost." In Kosovo, the objective was to stop the atrocities. Apparently, atrocities are continuing even as the Serbs withdraw. While Slobo has been forced to withdraw for the moment, nothing Clinton has done has changed Slobo's policy toward the Albanians. Slobo, an indicted war criminal, remains in power. Clinton has ruled out using troops to try to arrest him.
A Pyrrhic victory is one where the cost outweighs the gains. The gain is that we now have troops on the ground in Kosovo. It cost the lives of thousands of Kosovars, and it cost the US and NATO tens of billions of dollars. It is going to cost many more billions to restore the damage caused by the action. It is also going to cost billions more to maintain our forces in the area for the indefinite future. Clinton hasn't solved anything. The problems are still there. If we decide to leave, they will go back to killing each other.
41. jonesatlaw - June 17, 1999 - 9:48 AM PT
Botoomfdr- Slobo must go! There is a dangerous notion that rights of groups must be paramount in matters of government policies, both domestic and foreign. Such group "rights" threaten to overwhelm individual human rights. It's somehow morally acceptable to torch an old lady's house if she's some "other" invading "our holy ground" etc.
Collective rights are merely the aggrepation of the rights of the individuals involved. If individual human rights are respected, the legitimate rights of groups will follow.
I fear that you are correct. Slobo will likely survive and continue to stoke the fires of ethnic hatred. The Russians are still smarting from the loss of their empire, and are sympathetic to Slobo and Co. The Chinese are loath to enforce human rights norms of any kind. They will be enough to save Slobo's bacon. They should tread carefully, neither country really wants to legitimize the creation of ethnically pure states, it would lead to their dissection.
42. Trialshark - June 17, 1999 - 9:53 AM PT
Rosie --
Was that actually a Reuters analysis, as your post implies, or merely a recitation of the statements of Chinese government officials? CNN carried the story with the quotes you described, but they came from the Chinese government-controlled news agency Xinhua and were attributed to Beijing's foreign minister, Tang Jiaxuan.
I know you like parroting the anti-American statements of Communist leaders, but please be clear that that's what you're doing. The source matters.
43. jonesatlaw - June 17, 1999 - 10:08 AM PT
They don't believe the bombing was accidental, and we don't believe that they haven't attempted to interfere in our political life or that they haven't an espionage campaign against us. Sounds like we're even.
We'll have no serious problems with China for the immediate future. So long as the leadership has access to our markets and follows "to be rich is glorious" they will simply go about their business. They care about the world outside China in porportion to the direct effect of outside events in China and no more.
44. Wombat - June 17, 1999 - 10:33 AM PT
Charles Krauthammer makes a persuasive argument in favor of de facto partition, by allowing our Russian friends to assume control of a sector in the north of Kosovo that protects that includes the "holy sites" that the Serbs are so het up about saving.
Given the vile and bestial behavior of the retreating Serb forces, I do not see much hope for anything approaching a reintegrated Kosovo.
Krauthammer--whose politics I do not admire--pragmatically disposes of the Russian "problem" and accepts the situation as it is going to be on the ground. A de facto partition will also remove the difficulty of disarming the KLA and/or trying to keep them from taking revenge against the Serbs.
It would be nice if NATO would enforce the part of the withdrawal agreement that calls for the Serbs to leave "in good order." Serb militia and reservists are not doing so, and machine-gunning looters and wreckers among them would provide a salutary lesson.
45. Wombat - June 17, 1999 - 10:37 AM PT
Rosie:
It is "Chutzpah," and you display it every time you post. You also neglect to mention that the United States announced that will be willing to compensate the families of the Chinese killed in the bombing. Either that or you misread the item.
46. HardyHarHar - June 17, 1999 - 11:18 AM PT
"12. RosettaStone - June 16, 1999 - 2:21 PM PT
"If"
But it won't.
And now we are militarily involved in the Balkan Civil War for forever."
Rosie, you must be an immigrant, or something.
Everyone knows that the US has a special way of bringing different races together and promoting social harmony.
Lets just look to the past to see what the future might hold for your average Serb civilian:
When caucasian and spanish explorers came to the Americas they found a group of indigenous peoples here. Their response? Use them as capital for an aggressive expansion that lasted well until the mid 1800's. Where are these indigenous peoples now?
On reservations, where they subsist with chronic alcoholism, depression, domestic violence, unemployment and illiteracy.
At some point during this expansion, it was determined that more human capital was needed and so it was procured from Africa. For approx. 400 years people were imported and put to work. This practice was officially outlawed in the mid 1800's. Where are these people today?
While most would argue that this population is better off than the indigenous peoples are, their situation is stunning. High unemployment, high illiteracy, high rates of births out of wedlock, high rates of imprisonment.
47. HardyHarHar - June 17, 1999 - 11:20 AM PT
There are numerous other "groups" around the world we have helped in these ways, I think that a logical possible future for the balkans will look something like this:
The US will help design a Marshall-like plan in which European investments are made along with US military protection. The end result, 5-10 years from now, will see new buildings and infrastructure in Kosavo, Albania, Macedonia (later), Montenegro (even later), Hungaria, Romania and some of the other piss-poor countries in the region. Serbia, however, will become the Balkan equivalent of an American Indian Reservation, or an American inner-city ghetto. Destitute, hungry, ignorant peasants will live, oppressed, until they grow the balls to get rid of their government at which time they'll emerge from the abyss shell-shocked, culture-shocked and blinded by the brilliance of what they see around them - the developed world.
There will be no real military conflict once the infrastructure has been rebuilt to our standards. Serbia will remain, like North Korea, as a primative village of mysterious and slightly unpleasant savages with which the world will have to deal from time to time but will otherwise remain forgotten.
Sorry.
On the bright side, in about 100 years, when the Kosovar's hold the riens to the world economy, and everyone has forgotten about the Serbs, Steven Spielberg's great grandchild will make a movie about the plight of a some Serbian family in the 1990's and everyone will feel bad about it.
48. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 11:36 AM PT
"PRISTINA (Reuters) - NATO forces Thursday found what they said was a Serb-run police torture chamber in Kosovo's capital Pristina, and British officials said that about 10,000 people had been killed in massacres in the Serbian province."
77 days 10,000 dead...almost Hitleresque
49. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 11:38 AM PT
Message #33
uzzie:
Why don't you try saying something of "substance" again so I can rip you another ass hole?
50. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 11:48 AM PT
Message #36
"It is odd reading the Clinton Hawks recounting the horrors perpetrated by the Serbians in Kosovo. Each one is an example of the failure of Clinton's policy"
Each is an example of murder by Serbians. JJWeenie offers another example of ass backwards logic and partisan Repuglican pigshit.
Blaming Clinton for the Serb massacre of 10,000 Albanians is like blaming Clinton for Chicken Man's b.s. cliches or like blaming the police for murder.
Fact remains that the killing would still be going on if the GOP had its way.
Fact remains that the GOP Senate Policy Committee has aided and abetted the murder of Albanians by supporting Slobo for 2 years.
Fact remains the GOP run Congress wouldn't even vote a resolution of support for the most sucessful military undertaking since Grenada.
Fact remains the GOP Senate Policy Committee is linked on Serbian Information Ministry Websites.
Fact remains that Bill Kristol, John McCain, Dick Lugar, John Warner, George Will must now be classed as "Clinton Hawks"
Fact remains that JJB is full of pigshit.
51. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 11:50 AM PT
Fact remains that Clinton executed US policy first ennunciated by Bush Secty of State Eagleburger without a combat loss.
Fact remains that JJ Weiner is still full of pigshit.
52. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 11:52 AM PT
"The problems are still there"
No idiot the Serbs are gone.
53. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 12:01 PM PT
"It cost the lives of thousands of Kosovars,"
Pig shit.
54. JJBiener - June 17, 1999 - 12:07 PM PT
Jex - Your last series of posts demonstrates once again that you wouldn't know a fact if it bit you on the ass. You have completely distorted my posts. I'm just not sure if it was a deliberate distortion or if you are just too bloody fucking stupid to read. If you would like to make an informed comment, go back and read my posts a few dozen times so you will understand them. Then make a comment on their substance rather than on the refuse you have floating around in your head.
55. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 1:18 PM PT
NOTHING demonstrates the total bankruptcy of the Weenie's NATO did it argument than this headline:
"NATO Helpless as Homes Burn
Phased Withdrawal Allows Retreating Forces Time to Loot, Pillage"
In his warped Clinton foaming drool the Weiner would have us believe that Klinton killed all these Kosovars, that had he just not entered into a phased withdrawl agreement, these deaths would never have happened.
Beiner offers nothing but pig shit. The Albanians he would have us cry for as Clinton's Victims cry with a loud voice
THANK YOU CLINTON (to which they might well add "Blair, Schroeder, Chirac, D'Alema and the democratic governments representing 750,000,000 people)
Beiner is full of bile from the Grand Old Pigpile but precious little else.
56. AzureNW - June 17, 1999 - 1:20 PM PT
Re: Message #46
“Where are these indigenous peoples now?
On reservations, where they subsist with chronic alcoholism, depression, domestic violence, unemployment and illiteracy.”
hhmmmm....,
Most American Indians don't live on reservations any more. Many of those who do make a deliberate choice to accept the lower material standard of living to promote the cultural and political identity of their nations. After all, someone has to live on the rez speaking the national language and going through the national motions if it is going to be recognized as a sovereign nation, even if there is no way to make a living there any more. And the rez is not necessarily that bad a place to live. You might be surprised how refreshing the undeveloped, out-of-the-way reaches of a big or even medium-sized Indian reservation can be compared to the average freeway interchange on your daily commute. For example, the Pacific beaches at Neah Bay, where the Makahs recently made such an issue of their sovereign national right to make a living while hanging out on the rez, are exquisite. But in my opinion, the Makah rez is not as nice as the unspoiled estuaries and beaches of their neighbors' rez to the south, the Quinaults. Maybe you will get a chance to visit the Quinaults someday to see for yourself. They offer guided fishing expeditions.
“Serbia, however, will become the Balkan equivalent of an American Indian Reservation…”
It's going to take a long time for Europeans to start making sports mascots out of Serbs. However, I think it would be hilarious to see an armed Orthodox Serb used as a mascot for a European soccer team.
57. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 1:23 PM PT
Weiner...
Favor us again with your argument on behalf of Slobo that Clinton (note the use of "Clinton" not "NATO") won a "pyrrhic" victory.
And I'll shove it up your ass.
58. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 1:27 PM PT
For when all is said and done Weiner has nothing to offer as an alternative for "Clinton's War"
Would he have us believe that Slobo would not have killed thousands of Albanians so that the 10% minority Serbs could rule "Holy" Kosova>
Would the foaming half wit have us believe that GOP'ers Bush, Dole, Lugar, McCain, Warner, and William Kristol are "Clinton Hawks"?
There are 10,000 dead Albanians that say to Weener - "Take your silly ass partisan crap and shove it where the sun don't shine"
59. AzureNW - June 17, 1999 - 1:28 PM PT
Oops, another monkeypoop war is breaking out in here.
Time to take cover.
60. HardyHarHar - June 17, 1999 - 1:31 PM PT
AzureNW,
I've been to Indian reservations in California and Arizona and they are as I described them.
There wasn't a single "refreshing" thing about them, unless you count the view of the place from my rear-view mirror as I left....
61. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 1:35 PM PT
If this wsa "Clinton's War", then this was "Clinton's Victory"?
I am sick and tired of the cheap pig shit coming from the supposedly "conservative" Republicans who in reality are nothing but hard up Clinton haters.
If Anything These Are JJBeiner and Tom Delay Graves - NyT
"Conservatives" the world over are revelling to day.
Beiner and his ilk are driveling today.
Out of unremitting and boundless Clinton hatred, these assholes(Niner, Beaner, Rosie, Ass of Blast) have betrayed their "prinicples" and made their bed with mass murderers.
62. JJBiener - June 17, 1999 - 1:41 PM PT
Jex - Grow up.
63. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 2:06 PM PT
JJB:
I do not "misrepresent" your posts.
10,000 Albanians cry from their graves:
"Our blood is on you and on your cheap shit partisan revisionism."
64. RosettaStone - June 17, 1999 - 2:10 PM PT
Wombat: Oy, you have got a lot of khutspe!
That's the correct spelling in Common Yiddish Words in AltaVista.
And, stop being such a nebekh.
65. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 2:16 PM PT
JJB:
Their blood is on you.
" Brig. Gen. Fritz von Korff, the commander of the German sector, which has several suspected mass grave sites, told reporters that NATO would start using the phrase "crime scene" instead of "mass grave."
This is not a Nato crime scene. This is not a Clinton crime scene. If you want to play silly ass partisan debate games that would embarrass a high school debate team, this is a Tom DeLay, JJBeiner, Slobo Crime Scene.
To hell with your Clinton hating shit. To hell with it.
66. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 2:26 PM PT
"Crime scene"
No room IMO for little simpleton Poseurs who want to display what they learned 10-20 years ago watching Ronnie Raygun and their high school debate coaches.
67. JJBiener - June 17, 1999 - 2:28 PM PT
Jex - Grow up.
68. jroth2 - June 17, 1999 - 4:00 PM PT
The war was not perfectly conducted- few are. The peace may be problematic- what's new there? The question is not whether everything went perfectly or will end perfectly; the question is whether, on balance, the intervention was worthwhile.
I argue that it was, and is. No doubt in my mind that the sum total of Serbian atrocities was reduced by the Nato campaign. And reduced not by an insignificant amount. Take a look at the dates assigned to the mass graves so far discovered; quite clearly they fall off in frequency as the air campaign heated up. Would ground intervention have saved even more? Probably, but as has been pointed out several times a ground war would have strained the fragile nature of the alliance.
As for the future; we don't have to turn the Balkans into Heaven on Earth to make our committment there worthwhile. What we can do is demonstrate that the rewards of cooperation with Nato are much to be preferred to the pariah status that is the likely fate of Serbia as long as Milosevich remains. Every dollar spent on the Kosovars is a dollar that increases the gap between the Serbs and the rest of the region. As someone else posted, it is not inconcievable that, just as the stark contrast between North and South Korea worked to the advantage of America, so the contrast between a destitute Serbia and a resurgent Kosovo could demonstrate the value of cooperation to other countries.
69. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 4:15 PM PT
Djacovica's Mothers and Wives Ask: "Where Are Our Men?" {Post}
I can't say though I did see about 10 Albanian looking men on CNN walking in a circle in Lafayette Sq. Carrying signs.
No the signs didn't say "Our Blood Be on Nato", "Impeach Clinton", "Shred Shroeder", "Blair is a Bitch" or "Crap on Chirac"
I thought I saw one sign - "Stick the Fat End of a Louisville Slugger Up Rosie's Stinky Twat"
and another "Let Tom DeLay and the GOP "Leadership" Rotate on the Handle"
70. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 4:26 PM PT
"Oops, another monkeypoop war is breaking out in here.
Time to take cover."
Sorry for taking a giant dump in Azure's nice, white, clean ivory tower.
Mea maxima culpa.
71. ycmeehan - June 17, 1999 - 5:05 PM PT
Colossus,
Have you read the NYT thread "Settlement in Kosovo"?
If you did, can you please tell me what you think of it?
72. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 5:09 PM PT
No yc, I haven't.
I've been too busy teaching JJB to stop playing silly ass Fray games and kicking Serbs up one side and down the other on the LATimes thread.
Should I look at another? Can my circuits stand the load?
JJB:
Eat me.
73. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 5:12 PM PT
More evidence that Nato caused needless suffering by agreeing to a peace deal:
"mistreatment of ethnic Albanians -- including killings,
expulsions and detention -- by Yugoslav and Serbian forces continued after
the end of NATO's air campaign against Yugoslavia on June 9 and the
arrival of foreign peacekeepers in Kosovo."
74. EricCartman1 - June 17, 1999 - 5:28 PM PT
Message #48:
"77 days 10,000 dead...almost Hitleresque".
Hmmm....so what would that make 800,000 dead in 90 days, O Great Humanitarian? *Extremely* Hitleresque, I suppose. If only we could have done something, aside from cravenly back out of doing anything.
Their bad luck to be in a bankrupt region, I guess.
You like casting aspersions at everyone else's supposed indifference, but if you're gonna stay true to your professed principles, there's a lot more fucking blood on our hands just from Africa over the last 5 years than could have happened in Kosovo if every single Kosovar had been killed. How do you reconcile that level of indifference? (And no, I don't mean we should have gone to war there too, I mean we were utterly fucking indifferent to what happened.)
But yeah, we take a tough stand on dictators who murder and mistreat their citizens. Next tough stand -- feigned hand-wringing over whether we should renew MFN status for the Chinese. What to do, what to do? Indeed, what can people who are truly concerned about human rights DO, for God's sake? Gee, I guess we'll just renew MFN -- again -- and cross our fingers and hope they suddenly become civilized -- again. Heaven forfend we should raise a fuss. We only do that to countries we can squash like a bug.
75. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 5:56 PM PT
NBC Nightly News: "All of Kosova is now a crime scene as FBI forensic teams are en route to reconstruct exactly how the victims died."
15,000 at latest count including a fair number of babies and young boys.
15000 butchered; thousands of homes burned; 80% of the population made homeless; a few thousand rapes; a few thousand kidnapped to Serbia.
Ain't bad for 77 days of work. No wonder the Serbs are clearing out ASAP. THEY know what happened.
Himmler would be proud.
76. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 5:58 PM PT
Eric,
Write your Congressman. Ask Irv for a Thread. Invite a Hutu family to Chico. Crawl up my ass sideways.
77. EricCartman1 - June 17, 1999 - 6:22 PM PT
Colossus:
Fuck you. You want to talk numbers, I'm giving you some serious fucking numbers.
"Crawl up my ass sideways."
Suck a fart out of my asshole.
78. colossus - June 17, 1999 - 6:26 PM PT
A few Albanians remember the German Liberation from the Serbs in 1941
NowA Second Liberation![LA Times]
79. arkymalarky - June 17, 1999 - 8:04 PM PT
The NATO action was successful, and the more they uncover as they move through Kosovo the more apparent it becomes that their action was the right one. There's no room in modern Europe for a man like Milosevic as a dictator, and I don't think it would take too much for the Serbian people to support his removal from power now that he's failed in Kosovo. I'm glad my Serbian students are going to be able to stay in America, at least for a while. They've helped me keep my perspective on the entire situation and give me hope for the future direction of the region, though I don't know how representative they are of the general population.
80. bottomfdr - June 17, 1999 - 8:16 PM PT
Himmler? Sie haben recht mein herr. Er wurde sehr stoltz auf den Serben geworden sein. Sieg heil!
81. EricCartman1 - June 17, 1999 - 9:43 PM PT
Arky:
Milosevic is serving out the final year of his final term anyway. He was down the road to begin with. I know it's more entertaining to envision yet another Saddam, or another Hitler, a tyrant, a despot, an autocrat, a guy that can just "be removed" because he's an asshole, but the hard fact is this -- Milosevic acts with the authority of the Yugoslav Parliament (or at least did). This means that there are more like him, ready to grasp the reins of power. As with Saddam, "removal" is not necessarily the best of all options. The evil known being better than the evil unknown and all.
Cross your fingers, and hope that his replacement is not Vojislav Seselj, Serbia's answer to Vladimir Zhirinovsky. Seselj makes Milosevic look tame by comparison, and he has the support of the entire right wing of the Parliament. In fact, Seselj and his 83 supporters in Parliament walked out after Milosevic signed the cease fire.
Vuk Draskovic might be an adequate replacement, but he's in exile, and unlikely to return for a while. So Serbia might be stuck with Seselj.
And I know what many are thinking right now: "So what? We'll just make it clear that we won't help rebuild Serb infrastructure until they elect a moderate." Well, remember, we lost a plane there. The Serbs got it. And other countries (like, say, China, who seems a bit irritated with us for some reason) might be very willing to pony up some money to have a look at that plane. Bet on it.
82. arkymalarky - June 18, 1999 - 7:16 AM PT
Ohfercryinoutloud. How melodramatic. I didn't imagine we built those planes not to use them or with the delusion that they were 100% failsafe, along with their pilots, with no possibility of crashing in enemy territory.
And you're wrong about Milosevic. He is a dictator and the Serbians themselves, when they feel they can speak truthfully, make that plain. The NATO defeat actually makes the likelihood of his successor being someone like Seselj highly unlikely, as I'm sure you're already aware.
83. colossus - June 18, 1999 - 8:36 AM PT
Looking forward to Eric's "facts and figures" on Sudan and Rwanda. I for one am delighted Clinton moved so decisively to help Africa create a Regional Rapid Reaction force and set up a Crimes Tribunal for Rwanda.
Keep us posted charlatan.
84. colossus - June 18, 1999 - 8:39 AM PT
How many times did Rosie and her gang post sorrowful stories about the bridge bombed while the commuter train chock full 'o Serbs was on its merry way to Kosova to kill?
I have shed buckets of crocodile tears myself.
A Grave Around Every Corner {NyTimes}
85. colossus - June 18, 1999 - 8:44 AM PT
Message #80
Never took any German though I think they're the coming nation in Europe so maybe I should. Lets see something about being right sir and the Serbs .... I know what "seig Heil" means!
and I know what this hopeless piss ant palaver from Cartman means, its in English:]
"but the hard fact is this -- Milosevic acts with the authority of the Yugoslav Parliament (or at least did)."
So did Der Fuerhrer, you simpleton.
86. RosettaStone - June 18, 1999 - 9:44 AM PT
Hey, nazi jexster. The train was on its way to Macedonia when the NATO bombers attacked it twice.
87. colossus - June 18, 1999 - 9:48 AM PT
Clinton Signs Secret Order to CIA to Cleanse Serb Govt.
Rose,
And humanity was relieved of the burden of how many Serb killers?
88. JJBiener - June 18, 1999 - 9:57 AM PT
Jex - "And humanity was relieved of the burden of how many Serb killers?"
They were civilians.
89. HardyHarHar - June 18, 1999 - 10:47 AM PT
EricCartman,
I haven't been paying attention, are you saying that things in Yugoslavia would have improved (from our perspective) had we just waited until their upcoming election? And, that now, "we" have ensured that a more radical leader will be elected?
Yeah, and Hitler just wanted peace. A piece of Poland, a piece of France...
90. HardyHarHar - June 18, 1999 - 10:54 AM PT
As to Africa,
Having actually been there, I personally feel like "we" ought to do something there, on the order of what was achieved in Yugoslavia.
There are differences, though, not the least of which are the fact that there are few natural borders or theatres of containment with which a force like NATO or the US, alone, could work. What are we going to do, lay down and then patrol a thousand miles of constantina wire?
Also, there is a big, honking, black hole of a lack of infrastructure from which to direct, manage and launch a campaign. Remember, Europe is pretty well littered with airstrips (that are paved) buildings that have wires going into and out of them (I've walked through towns in parts of Africa that once had phone lines, but the citizens stripped them down for the metals....) and running water. In other words, as hard as it was to make do with what was there for us in Albania, its a goddamn Pentagon building compared with what there is for us to use in Rawanda, Sudan et al.
91. colossus - June 18, 1999 - 10:59 AM PT
JJB:
There is no difference between Serb civilians and military. All are Milosevic's Willing Executioners [TNR]
That's what is being proved again, right now in Kosova, just as it was in Bosnia.
The Serb people support this. They do this. Their guilt is proved by their frantic flight from Kosova just like a criminal fleeing the scene of the crime.
92. pellenilsson - June 18, 1999 - 1:52 PM PT
EricCartman1 - Message #81
"Milosevic is serving out the final year of his final term
anyway."
Is that a fact? He served two terms as president of Serbia. The president of Yugoslavia was a figurehead (anyone remember his name?). He was not allowed a third term so instead he allowed himself to be elected president of Yugoslavia. The president of Serbia is a figurehead (anybody know his name without looking it up?).
Anyhow, is the Yugoslav presidency for one term only?
93. EricCartman1 - June 18, 1999 - 2:02 PM PT
Arky Message #82:
"I didn't imagine we built those planes not to use them or with the delusion that they were 100% failsafe, along with their pilots, with no possibility of crashing in enemy territory."
No, of course not. I'm merely pointing out that, if the Serb gov't wants to raise some quick $$$ for rebuilding their infrastructure, all they have to do is let other countries pay for the privilege of examining the plane, and checking out the technology. You know, because generally we keep military technology a secret. Nothing melodramatic about any of that.
"[Milosevic] is a dictator and the Serbians themselves, when they feel they can speak truthfully, make that plain."
Well, if there were any democratic resistance left in Serbia (as there was until the bombing began), then the Serbs' opinions might make a difference. At this point, all bets may be off. The facts remain, Milosevic was elected by the people, was serving out the end of his final term, and acted with the approval of the Yugoslav Parliament. Am I trying to say he's not a bad guy? Hell, no. I'm pointing out that there are plenty more like him, and for every Serb that hates him now, after the bombing, there's probably another who idolizes the bastard for his ultra-nationalism.
"The NATO defeat actually makes the likelihood of his successor being someone like Seselj highly unlikely, as I'm sure you're already aware."
Possible, but not necessarily. Seselj has a lot of influence in the parliament, and a lot of supporters. And if the Serbian nationalist martyr persecution complex is still in full swing whenever it's time to replace Milosevic (whether by election or overthrow), Seselj may be their guy. Hopefully not, but I remain pessimistic. These people seem to be bad losers.
Colossus Message #87:
Gee, I guess we better hope that Milosevic doesn't read the NY Times, otherwise it ain't muc
94. AzureNW - June 19, 1999 - 12:58 PM PT
Russia agrees to join in NATO peacekeeping mission
Isn't this wonderful news? It's a cause for celebration. This is one very good thing that has come of this war and the sacrifice of all those who died in it. Russia and NATO are cooperating in peacekeeping operations that have the clout to control criminal governments, something the UN could not or would not do. May the peace and stability Europe is enjoying today spread to the rest of the world.
95. AzureNW - June 19, 1999 - 1:11 PM PT
It made me smile when I read the Russians had suddenly given up their demand for their own region of Kosovo to police. I had to wonder if NATO agreed to allow them to patrol the whole thing under NATO's direction. Having Russians guard Serb religious and government facilities throughout Kosovo is a great idea.
96. pellenilsson - June 19, 1999 - 1:23 PM PT
EricCartman1
I asked you a question in Message #92. Do you have an answer?
97. AuNaturel - June 19, 1999 - 1:24 PM PT
We need to do everything we can to keep the Russians as players on the world stage. We don't want them going back to communism or fascism in a funk because their national pride is hurt.
98. colossus - June 19, 1999 - 5:28 PM PT
Rosetta Stone: Vacationing in Sacramento?
"The LAT and NYT front, and the WP puts on page 3, the presumed hate-crime arsoning of three synagogues in Sacramento. A note found at one of the synagogues blames the war in Kosovo on the "North Atlantic Terrorist Organization" and the "International Jewsmedia."
Rosie often complained about CNN, the Clinton News Network and the North Atlantic "Terrorist" Org.
Simple Slerbo slobba from Rose or should we call America's Most Wanted?
99. colossus - June 19, 1999 - 5:30 PM PT
Yea yea Arky the Nato action was a sucess and the GOP acted horridly in fact, their opposition while troops were in harm's way was unprecendented.
But your pal Clintoon is still a fat wimp. If he had 1/4 the testosterone of Nixon & Agnew, most of the GOP would be sportin new assholes bout now.
100. EricCartman1 - June 19, 1999 - 10:32 PM PT
The end of my Message #93 should read, "Gee, I guess we better hope that Milosevic doesn't read the NY Times, otherwise it ain't much of a secret, is it?"
Pelle:
I apologize. I'm not ignoring your question. I've been attempting to find the article I read that item about Milosevic. I've looked through the SF Chronicle's search engine (which is dreadful), and through the print issues I haven't taken to the recycler yet. So far, no dice.
If I can't back it, I'll retract it.
Incidentally, I was also searching the SF Chronicle's site for a link to a very disturbing article I read in today's issue. Naturally, the article hasn't been put on the site, but I'll post a few relevant quotes:
"...NATO peacekeepers took 25 rebel members into custody after finding prisoners they had mistreated. One elderly man was found dead, chained to a chair."
"A Serb couple was also found dead on their home's doorstep and a 16-year-old Serb was killed in a country road ambush."
"German peacekeepers in Prizren...rescued 15 battered Gypsies and ethnic Albanians from what they said may have been a rebel torture chamber for alleged collaborators. The Germans found the victims in a police station the rebels had taken over."
Notice that the KLA is an equal opportunity torturer/killer; none of these victims were even Serbs.
There are no angels in this horrid conflict, only holy avengers. I know many in this thread have shrugged things like this off as revenge, but that's what kept this shit going for 600 years. As long as revenge and bloodfeuds are considered de rigeur, there will always be atrocities committed by all sides.
South Africa has been a model for reconciliation; hopefully NATO can get the KLA disarmed, and implement a similar process.