1. FrayVader - Aug. 20, 1998 - 6:37 PM PDT
A good discussion has been going on in "The
International Scene" about the bombings on Thursday of
suspected terrorist bases in Afghanistan and a suspected
chemical weapons plant in Sudan.
Please continue here.
2. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 6:45 PM PDT
FrayVader -
What do Indonesians think of this so far? Does it look like overkill from there?
3. ScottLoar - Aug. 20, 1998
- 6:46 PM PDT
Terrorism: indiscriminately targeting
and killing the citizens
of one's adversary to gain one's
end through fear and
intimidation
The theater: unrestricted
The means: unrestricted
The end: defined by the terrorist
4. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 6:47 PM PDT
"...indiscriminately targeting and killing the citizens of one's adversary to gain one's end through fear and intimidation..."
This is *exactly* what the government of the United States just did.
5. ScottLoar - Aug. 20, 1998
- 6:48 PM PDT
The means of defense: None, but
that the terrorists are
identified and their persons and
organizations destroyed
6. ScottLoar - Aug. 20, 1998
- 6:49 PM PDT
AzureNW, please don't twist my
definition into
hyperbole.
7. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 6:50 PM PDT
Along with any hostages or bystanders.
8. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 6:51 PM PDT
It's is NOT hyperbole to the innocent people who were executed.
9. ScottLoar - Aug. 20, 1998
- 6:53 PM PDT
AzureNW, you severely try my civility.
How do you
know "innocent people were
executed"?
10. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 6:56 PM PDT
I assume not all Afghanis are guilty.
11. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 6:57 PM PDT
How many people do you think were actually involved enough in planning and carrying out the terrorist bombing to warrent a death sentence ? 500? 1500?
12. FrayVa der - Aug. 20, 1998
- 6:58 PM PDT
Azure:
Indonesia has long had a strong
anti-terrorist force, which
handles internal terrorism and
takes no prisoners. The
terrorist bombings in Africa were
deplored, and the
Indonesian press has applauded
a quick strike against
those responsible. Like the rest
of the world, they await
clearer results of the effectiveness
of the strikes.
13. AdamSelene - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:00 PM PDT
Azure,
And what would you do in the face of hard evidence that more Americans were about to be bombed?
14. PseudoErasmus - Aug. 20,
1998 - 7:04 PM PDT
AzureNW (Message #10)
"I assume not all Afghanis are guilty."
You should also assume that not all Afghans are currency, either.
15. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:0 4 PM PD T
Cohen has already stated that the strikes were not effective.
" We recognize these strikes will not eliminate the problem," Cohen said, per CNN.
16. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:05 PM PDT
PE -
Which is the currency?
17. AdamSelene - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:05 PM PDT
AzureNW,
Criticism is easy - what are your alternatives, please?
18. PseudoErasmus - Aug. 20,
1998 - 7:06 PM PDT
Message #11
But how the hell can you ever
undertake a military
operation if a paramount objective
is always to avoid
civilian deaths?
19. AdamSelene - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:06 PM PDT
My grandmother knits Afghans.
20. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:09 PM PDT
AdamSelene -
We pay quite a bit of money for supposedly top-of-the-line military intelligence here. I don't understand why we need to blast the shit out of starving, already besieged third world people, dig gin g out fro m eart hqu ake s to sto p a few terr oris ts.< /P>
21. Sharon Schroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:12 PM
PDT
"I don't understand why we
need to blast the shit out of
starving, already besieged third
world people, digging out
from earthquakes to stop a few
terrorists."
To stop a few more terrorist acts and save a few more lives.
22. cartman69 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:12 PM PDT
Is there a civilian body count?
Hadn't heard anything
about that yet.
23. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:14 PM PDT
Make that "attempt to" stop a few more terrorists. The terrorists have not been stopped, I am sure.
24. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:15 PM
PDT
Azure, you make it sound like
we bombed the entire
friggin' country in one afternoon.
What would you do if
someone was commiting terrorist
acts against your
people and you were in charge?
Ask them to kindly stop
their innappropriate behaviour?
Or perhaps put a curse
on them? If you were smart you
would do your
damnedest to knock the crap out
of their headquarters
and hiding places.
25. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:15 PM PDT
SharonSchroeder -
Why don't we just nuke them all?
26. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:16 PM
PDT
Azure, I was using your words...
27. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:17 PM
PDT
Azure, you do like to be a bit
melodramatic...
28. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:18 PM PDT
SharonSchroeder -
You are cold-blooded.
29. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:21 PM
PDT
How do you figure I'm cold-blooded?
30.TempID54321 - Aug.20, 1998 - 7:24PMPDT
Azure,
The plant in Sudan was believed to have ties to Iraq as well as Bin Ladin.
Osama Bin Ladin lived and worked in Sudan for 5 years before relocating to Afghanistan. Please read this.
31. AdamSelene - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:24 PM PDT
I'm still waiting to hear those
alternatives.
32. FreeToChoose - Aug. 20,
1998 - 7:28 PM PDT
As any veteran of core wars knows,
tit-for-tat is the
optimal policy (under suitable
restrictions)
I think the tit-for-tat approach is a reasonable way to react to terrorism, although for it to work ( i.e. reduce violence, not increase it) it is essential that tats respond to verified tits. I fervently hope that is the case here.
(The above post is entirely serious, although I must confess that I have never had occasion to refer to "verified tits" before.)
33. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:30 PM PDT
Should Kingman, Arizona have been bombed because Timothy McVeigh lived there? Should his family have been shot if they sheltered and fed him?
34. AdamSelene - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:30 PM PDT
Well, I've verified a few before...
not all were real.
35. AdamSelene - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:32 PM PDT
Azure,
Well, if the Arizona militia kept out the feds who wanted to arrest McVeigh, and the state fed and housed McVeigh and a few hundred disciples .... ya, it might be necessary to bomb Arizona.
36. FreeToChoose - Aug. 20,
1998 - 7:32 PM PDT
I'll also repeat the thought I
posted elsewhere before this
thread existed.
I support the President in this decision.
I could be persuaded to rethink that position if someone can show that we had no evidence linking the targets to the bombings, but until that case (and Robb's speech makes likely that they did the requisite homework), the benefit of the doubt rests with the President.
37. FreeToChoose - Aug. 20,
1998 - 7:33 PM PDT
I'll also repeat the thought I
posted elsewhere before this
thread existed.
I support the President in this decision.
I could be persuaded to rethink that position if someone can show that we had no evidence linking the targets to the bombings, but until that case (and Robb's speech makes likely that they did the requisite homework), the benefit of the doubt rests with the President.
38. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:33 PM
PDT
Azure, please answer my post #24.
39. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:33 PM PDT
Azure,
Don't be silly. We don't have the same law enforcement options in Afghanistan that we have here.
Ben Ladin declared war on the U.S., in effect, and we have responded in kind.
40. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:33 PM PDT
FreeToChoose -
Do you think bombing Afghanistan and Sudan will decrease terrorism? I don't.
41.SharonSchroeder - Aug.20,1998 - 7:34PMPDT
The target in Sudan, as I understand
it, was used to
manufacture chemical warfare.
Sounds like a good
reason to attempt to get rid of
it to me.
42. FreeToChoose - Aug. 20,
1998 - 7:34 PM PDT
AzureNW
Assuming you are suggesting some sort of parallel in Message #33, I wasn't aware that there was a chemical weapons factory in Kingman, AZ run by McVeigh and friends. Tell me more about this factory.
43. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:36 PM PDT
Azure,
It's war. Plain and simple. As FTC said, tit for tat. We should show that we will not hesitate to use overwhelming force.
Besides, Afghanistan and Sudan have been advised for years that they needed to stop harboring known terrorist operations. They have thus far refused to comply. Their loss.
44. FreeToChoose - Aug. 20,
1998 - 7:37 PM PDT
AzureNW
I do. After Reagan ordered the bombing in Libya ( with the concurrence of the Defense Department I presume) I understand that terrorist activity dropped materially. I read this recently, but didn't review the underlying stats, so you are free to show me that these facts are suspect.
45. cartman69 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:40 PM PDT
Temp:
Thanks for posting the link. Religious fanatics are the worst; nothing dissuades them from their insanity.
46. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:40 PM
PDT
Azure, you don't appear to be
real good at answering
questions. Is there a problem?
Is it just my questions? Or
are you the spout-alot-and-run
type?
47. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:41 PM PDT
SharonSchroeder -
Like a lot of Americans, you don't seem to see non-Americans as actual "people." Killing several hundred Afghani "things" in an attempt to kill one terrorist is justified in your view.
48. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:42PMPDT
Sharon Schroeder -
I 'm still at work. I'm busy.
49. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:43 PM
PDT
Azure, that's pure unadulterated
bullshit! You know
nothing about me so don't pretend
to... Do you have as
much concerned for the thousands
of innocent africans
that were wounded or the hundred
or so that were killed?
Or do you just have sympathy for
anyone that the U.S.
kills?
50. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:44 PM
PDT
Not too busy to presume to know
me.
51. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:46 PM PDT
SharonSchroeder -
If it help you keep a clear conscience, what the hell. Believe everything the White House releases to the press. Who give a shit? I know I'm safe, too. No harm will come to me. To hell with everyone else.
52. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:47 PM PDT
Azure,
Sharon is right. Your position is the moral equivalent of those who sought to appease Hitler. Sometimes in world affairs, a small number of people must die to prevent a much greater disaster from occurring.
53. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:48 PM PDT
SharonSchroeder -
You made a judgement of me without knowing me, also. That is exactly what I responded to. Take a look.
54. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:50 PM PDT
Azure,
Now you're resorting to spouting nonsense. Either make a rational argument for your position or shut up.
Your old saw of identifying with the "oppressed Arabs and Muslims who, like the Native Americans of the last century, are being liquidated in a Judeo-Christian conspiracy" has worn past the point of threadbare.
55. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:50 PM PDT
"Or do you just have sympathy for anyone that the U.S. kills?"
I am concerned with executions that are carried out by my government on my behalf.
56.SharonSchroeder - Aug.20,1998 - 7:51PMPDT
Where did I make a judgement of
you?
57. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:51 PM PDT
LadyChaos -
What the fuck are you talking about? Please don't attribute quotes to me that I did not say.
58. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:51 PM PDT
"Executions" is a rather
strong word.
Do you call all deaths that result from acts of war "executions?"
59. AdamSelene - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:52 PM PDT
AzureNW,
And your alternative solution is?
60. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:52 PM PDT
Azure,
I don't have to attribute anything. Your rationale on this issue is well known.
61. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:53 PM
PDT
These are not executions they
are casualties. I have
sympathy for any civilians that
are caught in the middle
but you should be angry at the
terrorists that choose to
hide behind civilians rather than
the U.S.
You still did not answer post #24.
62. elliot803 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:53 PM PDT
How many civilians were killed
or injured in these
bombings?
I'm watching Phyllis Bennis from the Institute for Policy Studies on CSPAN, who is arguing that this kind of response to terrorism is ineffective and ill-advised.
63. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:54 PM PDT
LadyChaos -
By the way, I don't have enough respect for you to take your advice on what to say or not say. May as well save it.
64. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 7:55 PM PDT
AdamSelene -
Try and execute only the guilty.
65. haytch - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:55 PM PDT
The professional psychologists
among you may shred this
but:
I believe that they will say the best strategy for dealing with unreasonable "opponents" is mirrored response. As a sloppy example: if your opponent offers you a business transaction worth $10, accept it and respond with one worth $20. If they hit you upside the head with a ball-peen hammer, hit them upside the head with a ball-peen hammer twice.
I think studies of The Prisoner's Dilemma and/or other psychological experiments bear this out. Again, I have no hard data readily at hand.
If this is so, is it not the best way to deal with organized terrorists?
66. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 7:57 PM
PDT
Azure: "Try and execute only
the guilty"
And how would you propose to catch the guilty if they were hiding out in a country that would not cooperate with you?
67. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 7:57 PM PDT
Azure,
I know, you only "respect" PseudoErasmus (slurp-slurp).
68.arrackbelly - Aug.20,
1998 - 8:00PMPDT
AzureNW. Take the amount of civilians
killed, if any.
Divide by 260 million. That's
the share that was on your
behalf.
69. AzureNW - Aug. 20, 1998 - 8:01 PM PDT
LadyChaos -
Leave me alone.
70. AdamSelene - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:01 PM PDT
AzureNW,
Thanks for that wise advice. I'll be sure to pass it on to Clinton, it will revolutionize our foreign policy.
71. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:03 PM PDT
Azure,
Give me a solid reason for your opinion and I'll leave you alone.
72. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:05 PM PDT
I should add that I am not hawkish
by nature; I found the
Panama invasion appalling, for
example.
But where cause can be found and the objectives are clear, I say don't hesitate. The lessons of history are overwhelmingly in favor of meeting aggression with overwhelming force.
73.SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 8:07 PM
PDT
Azure, do we even know yet what
the number, if any, of
civilian casualities is from today's
actions?
74. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:09 PM PDT
Sorry 'bout the double use of
"overwhelming" in the same
sentence. I'm brain-dead, tonight.
75. elliot803 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:10 PM PDT
Global reaction to the bombings,
from Britain's Guardian
newspaper:
Britain was quick to praise the move with PM Tony Blair claiming that he "strongly" supported Clinton.
Israeli Prime Minister Binyamin Netanyahu: "The prime minister welcomes the U.S. decision to strike targets of terrorists in Sudan and Afghanistan," said an official spokesman for Israeli.
Pablo Castellano from the Spanish United Left coalition: "a reaction geared towards trying to win popularity ... rather than combat terrorism."
Sudanese information minister, Ghazi Salah-Eddin: "a criminal act"
Iraqi TV: "Is the bombardment of safe populated areas, factories, or any inhabited place - as the United States did when it bombed areas in Sudan and Afghanistan - not considered terrorism?"
Ravan AG Farhadi, Afghanistan's offical at the United Nations: "We have been informing the UN and also our American friends that there is connection between the Pakistani military intelligence... and the Taliban for taking care of and doing the management for all these camps for retaining terrorists. Unfortunately our view was not taken care of until all the tragedies happened with the bombings in Kenya and Tanzania."
[continued]
76. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 8:10 PM
PDT
Lady, I was overwhelmed by it
;-)
77. elliot803 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:11 PM PDT
[continued]
Newt Gingrich, House Speaker interviewed on CNN: Well, I think the United States did exactly the right thing. We cannot allow a terrorist group to attack American embassies and do nothing. And I think we have to recognize that we are now committed to engaging this organization and breaking it apart and doing whatever we have to to suppress it, because we cannot afford to have people who think that they can kill Americans without any consequence. So this was the right thing to do. We have not yet gotten assessments of the damage, but I hope that it's been very decisive. And I think it's very important that we sent the signal to countries like Sudan and Afghanistan that if you house a terrorist, you become a target. And if you want to get rid of the target you've got to get rid of the terrorist.
France, Pakistan and the United Nations all withheld comment until more information is known.
78. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:13 PM PDT
With steadfast allies like France,
who needs enemies?
79. 109109 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:15 PM PDT
The most effective response is
one that causes the most
collateral damage. Sadly, destroying
a terrorist weapon
facility slows down an inevitability.
Killing lots of
terrorists, their homes, their
civilian cover, and hopefully,
their families, it has longer-lasting
effect.
80.LadyChaos - Aug.20,1998
- 8:16PMPDT
Not wishing to sound glib, I might
add that France's
moral equivocations wrt Middle-East
terrorism mirror
almost perfectly its omissions
of democratic solidarity that
contributed so significantly to
the onset of WWII.
81. 109109 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:18 PM PDT
I second the Lady in a general
denunciation of the French
and their absent spines.
82. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:18 PM PDT
My last post was incomprehensible.
Time to go to bed.
83. elliot803 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:19 PM PDT
haytch:
I think it's rather naive to think that the Prisoner's Dilemma, as interesting as it is, is likely to be a useful tool for analyzing complex human affairs like the problem of global terrorism.
I also think that your suggestion that "if [your opponent] hits you upside the head with a ball-peen hammer, hit them upside the head with a ball-peen hammer twice" is extremely misguided and is likely to lead to an escalation of increasingly violent and destructive exchanges.
84.elliot803 - Aug.20,1998
- 8:21 PM PDT
109109:
"The most effective response is one that causes the most collateral damage."
What is the basis for this claim?
85. ScottLoar - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:21 PM PDT
France has commercial interests
in the Middle East and
so avoids offense, and does not
in any way want its
position on any matter to be construed
as pro-American.
Pakistan is the neighbor of Afghanistan
(and the
classroom of its present rulers
the Taliban), and with a
vocal and increasingly influential
bloc of Muslim
extremists in its society Pakistan
is wise to temper any
comment with regard to those facts.
Of course both
France and Pakistan benefit from
the diminishment of any
terrorist group as most do - save
the terrorists
themselves.
86. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:21 PM PDT
elliot83,
Escalation is a risk, but relying on international law enforcement alone (i.e., doing nothing) doesn't appear to have gotten us any useful results.
87.LadyChaos - Aug.20,1998 - 8:24PMPDT
NPR came up with some information
today that the
factory in Sudan was probably
an "offshore" Iraqi facility
for chemical weapons production
which Ben Ladin
helped to operate.
88. ScottLoar - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:25 PM PDT
A danger in escalation against
terrorism? See my
Message #3 and Message #5.
89. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:26 PM PDT
Re: Message #86
In any case, it appears that Ben Ladin was ready to escalate the "war," with or without our participation.
90. SharonSchroeder - Aug.
20, 1998 - 8:26 PM
PDT
In the president's speech this
afternoon he mentioned the
chemical aspect of the sudanese
target.
91. elliot803 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:26 PM PDT
And before the trashing of France
goes much further,
perhaps we should look a little
closer to home at the
United States' long and sordid
record of coddling brutal
dictators and turning a blind
eye to gross human rights
violations when its own commerical
and strategic interests
have been at stake.
92.ScottLoar - Aug.20,1998
- 8:28 PM PDT
I didn't "trash" France.
93. 109109 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:29 PM PDT
Elliot
Anectdotal (Quaddafi, the Soviet experience in Lebanon), the view of some (not all) foreign policy and terrorism experts, and just my own sense of it.
In the end, when someone like Quaddafi or Ben-Ladin (sp?) becomes the foe, and their impetus is largely cultural or religious, and their goal is outrageous. killing them seems really the only option. They will kill innocents at random, you have nothing they want, so "diplomacy" is largely useless (unless you can actually deliver on the eradication of the modern Jewish state). Moreover, they have unlimited funds, so a war of attrition on materiel is out as well.
94. elliot803 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:29 PM PDT
LadyChaos:
"Escalation is a risk, but relying on international law enforcement alone (i.e., doing nothing) doesn't appear to have gotten us any useful results."
Maybe we didn't try hard enough. It wouldn't be the first time.
95. elliot803 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:30 PM PDT
ScottLoar:
I didn't say you did.
96. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:30 PM PDT
elliot83,
That's true. I know it sounds cold, but one has to distinguish between those countries that repress *internally* and those countries (and entities) which threaten *externally*, for purposes of keeping the peace in the world. I posit that France has to this day not learned the lessons of 1938.
97. 109109 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:30 PM PDT
I confess. I trashed France. I'm
still angry at the Maginot
Line, and the women still maintain
way too much body
hair for my taste.
98. LadyChaos - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:32 PM PDT
elliot,
In matters of international law enforcement, the parameters of our ability to "try" are restricted by the willingness of third party countries to "do." Beyond that, our options are to go in and get the bastards ourselves; i.e., military force.
99. ScottLoar - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:33 PM PDT
I fail to understand why anyone
would think escalation
against terrorism is a risk, unless
you stand alone against
the terrorist who has more resources
than you, in which
case you're at his dubious mercies.
100. cartman69 - Aug. 20, 1998
- 8:34 PM PDT
On "48 Hours", Dan Rather
talked with the Sudanese
Ambassador to the UN about what
exactly this factory
produced. Our intelligence sources
have said it produced
a chemical component for VX nerve
gas, the ambassador
insisted it was a pharmceutical
plant.
Incidentally, the ambassador also mentioned that there are civilian casualties, but did not elaborate as to how many. At any rate, the entire 1-hour program had an undeniable smell to it, in spite of the evident rightness of our actions today.